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Post by Oliveman on Nov 10, 2007 18:29:18 GMT -5
Well we still have to remember that the context for the question depends on what God "is". I think this is a reasonable way to refute the existence of an omni-potent God with a will, though.
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Kyle
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~~~~~ Trust Beyond See ~~~~~ "One light will tear apart the night"
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Post by Kyle on Nov 10, 2007 18:40:24 GMT -5
I beg to differ, though, and like this conclusion the more it arises. This reasoning only works if you limit God to Logic.
By defining God as omnipotent, you've already ruled Logic out of the equation.
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Post by dangerjane on Nov 12, 2007 12:55:26 GMT -5
AH yes Kyle you're a genius
(I swear I've come up with the conclusion that God is outside of logic before...)
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Post by Oliveman on Nov 12, 2007 15:34:31 GMT -5
But since WE'RE not, isn't it a poor excuse?
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Kyle
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Post by Kyle on Nov 12, 2007 19:40:40 GMT -5
DJ: Sweet, thanks XD
Oliver: No. Go ram your head into a wall and say that was a good choice of action, if you want a similar experience.
Unless, of course, do you see a flaw in my reasoning? =)
You could go back to the argument my Old Testament professor gave: Who said God was omnipotent?
That one that trips me up >_> I have yet to fully engage it.
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Post by Oliveman on Nov 16, 2007 18:48:25 GMT -5
I think that largely originates from Gensis, and is supported by deus-ex-machina moments throughout the Old Testament.
And I don't quite get your reasoning with the head-ramming example, sorry
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Kyle
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Post by Kyle on Nov 25, 2007 1:32:34 GMT -5
I dunno what "deus-ex-machina moments" are, but I only see references to "omnipresent" and "all-knowing." Feel free to cite specific sources.
The head-ramming example is in response to your logic: "Because we're limited by logic, isn't it a poor excuse to say God isn't?" No. It's actually a logical argument ;P
If you want to try to talk about God being omnipotent AND constrained by logic, then you've hit my twist on another paradox: "What happens when the unstoppable head rams the immovable wall?" They can't both logically exist, but feel free to try it to test the theory.
------------------------- Edit: Oooo, hahaha, something else came to me: If God is omnipotent, shouldn't God be able to do whatever God wants (like smite our paradox) even within the scope of logic?
If I keep following that ... I think we destroy the possibility of God being omnipotent as in "limitless in all ways"... or at least recognize how much further away our understanding is. Either way, I'm starting to think there's no foundation in basing arguments on God being limitless =/
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Post by misslissy on Nov 25, 2007 22:11:59 GMT -5
Deus-Ex-Machina moment, I feel would be the manna and quail in the desert for the Israelites. They would have died without it.
God is outside of logic. I've come to accept that a long time ago. There is stuff about him I will never understand because he is all knowing he knows the answers to things like the trinity.
And also, I do believe that God can do whatever God wants. I recognize him as limitless in all ways. He destroyed almost the entire world that he created once and I truly believe there's nothing he can not do. He's even said that those with little faith in him, can do amazing things like move mountains.
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Kyle
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Post by Kyle on Nov 26, 2007 1:47:46 GMT -5
*still not sure what a "deus-ex-machina" moment is and thinks it's better to use more understood terms*
Lissy, I hope you don't mind, but this seems like a good opportunity to twist the direction of this topic a bit with another big question:
If God is limitless, why do people suffer?
I'd like to respond to one of the theological responses in advance:
So humankind could have the free will to worship God - If God is limitless, God could create free will AND prevent suffering. Why would God not create the best of everything?
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Post by misslissy on Nov 26, 2007 19:32:44 GMT -5
My response to that is go read Genesis. They did live in a perfect world. There was no suffering. They abused their free will to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and then there was evil. Before that, people didn't know what evil was. Once evil was released into the world, suffering came about. The two go hand in hand. God did create the best of everything, but not everything that was created was used for the best.
Without that fall into sin, there would be no pain. No pain = no suffering. Pretty simple equation to me.
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Kyle
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Post by Kyle on Nov 28, 2007 6:43:07 GMT -5
My response to that is to read my previous post--you've missed the point entirely. God could have set it up so that humankind wouldn't abuse their free will, but God didn't. You are arguing the very point I answered in advance. Try again.
Or, are you saying God couldn't? Are you saying that the only way for God to get what God wanted was to allow evil? If so, you're saying that there are limits to what God can do.
If God is limitless, then God can do anything and the only reason that there is evil in the world is because God willed it.
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Edit: As Lissy and I continued to discuss this via IM, this is how the logic progressed: If God is limitless and above logic, God can make any two rules God wants and can make them not contradict. Hence, God could have made free will without ever allowing for evil.
I go further to say that, if the above is the case, then there was no reason for evil to start, since God could have gotten anything God wanted without allowing for evil (if God is limitless, that is).
Serious implications there... if there was no reason, does God make arbitrary decisions? (That's only one possible implication...)
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