Kyle
Full Member
~~~~~ Trust Beyond See ~~~~~ "One light will tear apart the night"
Posts: 204
|
Post by Kyle on Oct 11, 2007 11:00:21 GMT -5
Can God create a mountain so heavy that even She/He couldn't lift it?
I have my own answer for this, but I'll leave this open for now. Heeheehee.
Disclaimer: I'm not being blasphemous or asinine ><
|
|
|
Post by vonshneer on Oct 11, 2007 13:03:47 GMT -5
I would say no, if some being that we could put the name "god" on, and this being could create (and has created) all things, then I think he would be omnipotent
|
|
Kyle
Full Member
~~~~~ Trust Beyond See ~~~~~ "One light will tear apart the night"
Posts: 204
|
Post by Kyle on Oct 11, 2007 18:11:54 GMT -5
That's the paradox, though =)
* If God can't create the mountain, Her/His power has limits. Thus, She/He's not omnipotent.
* If She/He can create the mountain, but can't lift it, then Her/His power has limits. Thus, She/He's not omnipotent.
O.o
|
|
|
Post by vonshneer on Oct 11, 2007 18:32:59 GMT -5
Well if there was a boundless mountain that could never be reached the end of from either side or from high and low, and was filled with solid lead, my assumption is that god would still be able to lift it. I don't see this as much of a paradox since the paradox you are trying to create is, can god create his own weakness? But since god is not something or someone who is living or breathing around us then the whole situation ends without any point being taken from it. Meaning god is not a mailable form. God is something to believe in and only exists within the bounds of a human skull whether this entity does truly exist it is not something to be found before death, and after death we could only exist (if this is truly a reality) in some extrasensory form. So- if God is more of a symbolic entity than a pure form and you will never be able to go and say "oh hey there's god, how you doing god?" - for god to lift the mountain it would not be with two mortal arms but with something much different. You could even look at in such a way that instead of yes god could lift the mountain you would go with the other, no god couldn't lift the mountain because there is no entity alive to go and do the lifting
,besides if there was a god who said he'd be anything like us?
This probably sounds like chicken scratch but I'm in too much of a state to edit it up really
|
|
Kyle
Full Member
~~~~~ Trust Beyond See ~~~~~ "One light will tear apart the night"
Posts: 204
|
Post by Kyle on Oct 11, 2007 19:01:52 GMT -5
That's another way to put it: "Can God create something greater than Her/Him?"
I apologize, but I couldn't understand your answer other than that =(
It sounds like an atheistic or agnostic approach, but that's notsomuch a response to the question as much as it is a different topic: "Does God exist? In what form?" (different thread)
|
|
|
Post by vonshneer on Oct 11, 2007 19:19:17 GMT -5
Okay, in this case the answer is No. If god is omnipotent that would have to mean that his power was limitless. Nothing can outdo limitlessness, so the best god could create would be something equally as limitless. And say he did do this he would not be able to lift it, but instead god would live in complete unity with this form since neither would have the ability to outdo the other. Like Ying and Yang. The mountain you are speaking of is in some way the devil. The devil apposes god's view, but god simply does not defeat this (even though we are taught of gods wrath and what not) but instead god is a pure essence that is formed upon belief. What we believe of him is in essence the penultimate truth. How's that?
|
|
|
Post by vonshneer on Oct 11, 2007 19:52:12 GMT -5
Allow me, if you will, to state that: The adjacent canopy of wires and mesh wraps around our souls and gives us this divine freedom to accentuate ourselves from any given moment to the next. Ergo, that which we choose has simply come about through minds of our own, fueled by that starlet (led, north star) deference that would have us huddling, and thanking this lucky star, for and from the random occurrences we call life.
|
|
Kyle
Full Member
~~~~~ Trust Beyond See ~~~~~ "One light will tear apart the night"
Posts: 204
|
Post by Kyle on Oct 11, 2007 19:53:43 GMT -5
It sounds like you're saying that Logic > God, actually--God is restricted by what is logically possible. Is that right?
|
|
|
Post by vonshneer on Oct 11, 2007 20:43:34 GMT -5
If god created all things then god can only be as great as that which he has created. This at first seems impossible, but in the sense that humans, or other such creations, do not have the power to build that which exceeds them, but can only make due with that which their environment has to offer. But, going off this same logic, god too cannot create that which exceeds himself for then he would cease to be god and this new form would therefore need to take his place. So, if this new (more powerful) god were to come into power, the logic would remain the same, and this new entity would simply take on the name of the old. Because he did not create al things in the first place, does this not make him god? If then, in essence, the new form not be god, then a theory of newer creation (That of the grandeur) would become obsolete, pointless. As in any paradox, of course we would run ourselves in a sort of circle, but circles that exist past the realms of pure fiction are also circles that will move on and expand, take natural growth in their own existence.\ Take for example our (god's creatures, humans) creating something bigger than ourselves. Do we sat it cannot be? - As with the age old myth of all powerful robots that would have a perfect artificial intelligence. They would create their own path to copulation and hence succession... but would these take the place of humans? We put this subject in a strict taboo, something of fear. The question relates: Can god create something bigger than himself? Well, sure maybe he can, but the real question is, if god created that ultimate being, would this original god still reign over the new being that we may name god two, or Godbot, even though this new being be more powerful than he? In creating a paradox you will ultimately run in circles, but those circles lead to newer evolution in themselves. Is this evolution more worthy than the last? It's completely subjective. A similar paradox springs to my mind now. Imagine, if you will, a woman (or man) pondering over the meaning of life. But then, upon being given the answer, is left with a choice: Do I really care?
You will hear no more from me on this subject, that is my full and complete opinion on this spiraling mental masturbation. Thank you and goodnight.
|
|
Kyle
Full Member
~~~~~ Trust Beyond See ~~~~~ "One light will tear apart the night"
Posts: 204
|
Post by Kyle on Oct 11, 2007 21:29:38 GMT -5
That's my previous point: Logic > God. By limiting God to Logic, you're saying God isn't omnipotent... because She/He has limits.
If God is omnipotent, She/He would have already been that new entity ^^
You've brought up some good points with this: Do we define God by that which created everything, that which is omnipotent, or both? Maybe more importantly, why?
My answer to the question Yes, God can make a mountain so big that even She/He couldn't lift it. Then, She/He will lift it.
The logic fails us--we can't comprehend God.
I had this similar discussion with a philosophy-major friend of mine. ...I think he got mad. That conversation was more along the lines of "Can a circle be a square?" ....he got so mad at my answer XD
My Old Testament Professor's Answer Who said God was omnipotent? He's even got a temper.
|
|
|
Post by kcsifi on Oct 11, 2007 22:04:44 GMT -5
My Answer: (initial) Your question implies a 'subject - object" mode of thought. Who says that God and the Mountain are seperate entities? The mountain is a physical manifestation of the power of God, and God's power/energy works through it. When the mountain eventually decays, crumbles, is sunk, made level, etc. all this is happening through energy exchanges involving God. Thus, with the same logic that everything created must eventually be 'destroyed' and remade into a new form (zero-sum principle...in biology and economics) no mountain will be impervious to being 'lifted' as it were. For the physical presence of God seems to exist in a constancy (though perhaps not consistency) of change -in all things.
|
|
|
Post by kcsifi on Oct 11, 2007 22:07:03 GMT -5
btw, thought I would let it slide, but why do you have 'He' in your question? Are you speaking of a specific religions personification of God? If not you might want to use non-gendered words.
|
|
Kyle
Full Member
~~~~~ Trust Beyond See ~~~~~ "One light will tear apart the night"
Posts: 204
|
Post by Kyle on Oct 11, 2007 22:24:06 GMT -5
kcsifi: My question implies a lot of things ^ ^ Still, though, could God lift that mountain, even if it's simply a manifestation of Herself/Himself?
I used "He" because I was raised in a mostly-Christian background that uses "He" (some parts of Christianity do not). Because of that, I'm sometimes inconsiderate of other's perspectives (and my own, lol) =) *goes through his posts and fixes it* Thanks for pointing that out
|
|
DamaNegra
Full Member
Angolera de cora?ao
Posts: 169
|
Post by DamaNegra on Oct 11, 2007 22:27:39 GMT -5
Only if Chuck Norris gives God permission to lift the mountain.
.......... I clearly need to sleep. I'll give a coherent contribution to this thread tomorrow, I promise.
|
|
|
Post by kcsifi on Oct 12, 2007 0:02:42 GMT -5
I don't want to attack you and I know this is being picky, but I feel like this is where I can bring such things up. Notice I said non-gendered words. Don't feel obligated to change your post...again, many people do view God with a gendered form. However, it is interesting to note that the strict texts of many religions, though (as in Christianity) they use the pronoun He and forms of syndoche (involving the hand,) don't refer to God as a contained physical entity. It seems to speak to human nature that we have so often created these images and personifications of God as such. sorry if I got a little off topic.
Anyways, to get back to your question, it still doesn't apply. God is the mountain. There is no person God. God is 'in' people, and part of them. A person may lift the mountain by 'filling themselves' with God as much as they are capable. So I suppose, in the most straightforward sense, the answer is yes, 'God can lift the mountain.'
|
|